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Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:06 pm
by Questers
It is about time that we finished the Great War so that it has a clear meaning to everybody. At the moment it is an event that is more well developed for some than others and which has important meanings to some but not to all.

It's clearly "the major event" that brings all the players together at one place and at one time, so it needs to be really developed. It's the starting point for major civil and international events so it ought to be completed and polished. Unfortunately, it isn't.

Some initial discussion points:
It's too long. It's too difficult to sperg an eleven year war. Let's condense it - there's no reason it can't be shortened to five, four, or even three years. If people are attached to a "long war" aesthetically then they need to consider that we have tried that and it was far too long to sperg. This is a project we want to finish.

It's not clear who "wins". Inverted commas: what I really mean is it's not clear what the world situation is like at the start and what it's like at the end. We need to decide that first, then work on what happens internally.

The war should be divided into theatres, each of which we can write a manageable amount of. So far we have the following:
Questers-Songia theatre
Questers-Dumanum theatre
Dumanum-Crataea theatre
Wallasean theatre
Oryontic theatre
And clearly there'll also be a new, Ingenic theatre.

Final point: the war ought to be written by the people who are presently active and contributing. Details of those who don't consistently contribute can be edited by them at a later date, but that indecision shouldn't stall the advancement of the meta. To this end: does there need to be a Questers-Songia theatre? Does Songia need to be involved? At the time of writing it was an influential country but not any more.

Brief proposal:

The war should begin in Wallasea because Wallasea's the big hotbed. It should expand by some mechanism to the Commonwealth. The war is then Wallasea-Oryontic naval-Ingenic naval. Dumanum should jump in as Questers appears weak, and that adds the final theatre, which is Questers/Dumanum, arching out to Zuk/Dumanum. It should begin in 1905-1907 and end in 1911 as already decided.


Re: Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:18 pm
by Srf
1903 - 1908 Wallasean war, 1907 -1911 Crataean war.

Keep it long but make it a connected string of wars rather than everyone going all in for 11yrs

Re: Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:24 pm
by Crave
Agreed with everything in OP. RE the proposal, I think that's a workable start.

The slight rewrite I did for the new Bigeron meta had SoWa dogpile on a Prek-Zegoran axis that was under attack by Cock. When the E-G eventually enters the war on the side of Cock, the SoWa Entente DoWs Prek and Zeg. Flamaguay and Saratovia are mainly concerned with 1) containing Prek influence and 2) neutralizing Zegora as a threat.

Instead of SoWa DoWing because of the Cock invasion, I think other way around would make more sense - Prekovy has been declining steadily for some years but is still indisputably the largest Wallasean nation. Its acquired several states with other ethnic groups (Romanians, Balts, Magyars, etc) which scares SoWa into thinking they're next. Saratovia and Flamaguay get together with Embrea and Polacekia to put together an anti-PrekoZego alliance. As stated, FlamSar want to mainly neutralize Zeg, while Emb and Pol could potentially have border territories with ethnic Embs and Pols under Prek control they want to wrest away.

Cock would then likely opportunistically jump into the fray to take The Carse, which could still be canon re: millennium war. This would give CL an in for the war in Wallasea.

How it spreads from there to Crataea and Arterus is anyone's guess - ideas welcome.

RE Srf's proposal, it was my understanding that this was already the intended format of the war. The Wallasean theatre lasts from 1904 to 1908 currently, and SoWa is only in from 05 to 08.

Re: Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:27 pm
by North Point
Yes it's too long. Far too long to be realistic/believable. Condense to 4 (at most 5) years, later is better (i.e., 1911 preferred to 1891)

Songia should not play a major part as Ato does not post or contribute.

There should be a naval battle off the coast of North Point.

Not every country/theater needs to be involved -- for instance we can likely assume Veridis is not a battleground/nothing happens as in South America in WW1 and WW2 (largely).

Ingenic theater should be limited to chasing down commerce raiders (no 1944 style Pacific island hopping campaigns or major naval battles).

Re: Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:33 pm
by Questers
I think the problem is how to integrate Crataea and Wallasea. Wallasea/Oryontic/Ingenic/North Point can clearly have a big war on any pretext in this time period. The question is how they link with Crataea.

If they don't - and by the way, that's legitimate - if there's going to be a Crataean war then why is it at all linked to the Wallasean war and why does it need to be at the same time?

Re: Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:48 pm
by Questers
Concept 2 -
Crataean religious war.

Until the 1880s Crataea has "one religion" - which is really many, many religions, but they co-exist side by side as they are polytheistic and accept the other religions as being legitimate and existing (ie Romans). There's Commonwealth religion in parts of Questers but that's about it. All religions are accepted and all Kings of each religion accepted as being legitimate.

So in the 1880s there's a Thirty Years War type event where (after maybe a century of discourse), the countries decide that it doesn't really work this way - there's the Pantheonist (radicals), the Traditionalists, and some other factions, and they have a big, big fight, that lasts until the early 1900s (1905 maybe) in which they more or less just kill each other, a lot, all the time. This results in modern day Crataea which has somewhat unified culture, and there's still a strong sense of polytheism, but there's nowhere near the religious unity there was before.

The damage done to the trade of industrialising Wallasea causes economic crisis in Wallasea which eventually erupts into war in 1907 to 1911. That is what we would consider the "Great War".

So there's Crataean Twenty-five years war, and there's Wallasean Great War, which is a direct result of the former.

Re: Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:09 pm
by flm
Here are the main points regarding Flamaguay (and Veridis) that are quite important to rping down the line. These are things which would be ideally included, or not altered. However, if there is good reason to edit things then I am all for it.
  • Flamaguay has to have some sort of mutilated peace, wherein it either wins and doesn't get much to show for it (some Zegoran borderland or some islands or something) or if it loses it does so with a stab-in-the-back approach (which can be "internal" rped out by me alone after)
  • Flamaguay has a BIG DICK navy at the start of the war. I'd rather it win more than it loses overall.
  • Flamaguay has to keep Veridis
  • Flamaguay would not align itself with Prekovy or Zegora
  • Flamaguay would only align itself with CL in an extreme situation

I think people should post a whatever points that they consider to be "non-negotiable" so we know what is off-limits, and then we have operational limits to determine the rest of the history.

Re: Great War

Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:12 pm
by Crave
  • Saratovia can either win or lose, doesn't matter much so long as its current territory makes sense (aka it wouldn't have really lost anything) - but its economy needs to be in a severe depression by the end for other events to trigger properly
  • Saratovia has a NOT-AS-BIG-AS-FLAM-BUT-STILL-BIG DICK navy at the start of the war - it would try to use this to its fullest extent
  • Saratovia needs to keep its present territories - it can have other historical territories not currently sperged or on the map that it loses
  • Saratovia would not align itself WITH Prekovy and would not align itself AGAINST Flamaguay - likewise it would probably naturally already guarantee Polcekia's sovereignty
  • Saratovia was discussed to possibly stand in for Quiberon as an imperial overlord in Motappaland - this can be changed and isn't in any way currently established beyond a basic outline, but could open up some interaction in Crataea for Sar early on
  • Saratovia would be open to unofficially aligning itself with CL - in other words, if fighting against Prek/Zeg/whomever, it would gladly stay neutral to CL if they had a common enemy so long as CL didn't attack Sar or its allies

Otherwise I'm wide open. The new Wallasean meta should be a direct product of the result of the GW, which would likely still entail a Prekovite defeat so that the current political climate allows for SoWa to be autonomous at present.

Re: Great War

Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:12 am
by Praetonia
I would prefer Songia not be a major player because I don't feel it's part of the SMS lore in the same way Questers, Dumanum, Praetonia and Prekovy (gets a pass because Quiberon was important but honestly it already has more character and info than Songia) are.

One theme of the war should remain CL breaking out of its box as a weird and not that important if sometimes annoying thing to most countries into a potential threat to the world order. But the more disparate the motives of the non-CL countries, the more interesting it is.

I like the idea of the Ongobongo states coupling CL (and therefore Wallasea) to Cratea. I dont like the idea that Praetonia being distracted by Wallasea would spark a Dumani invasion on its own, because at that time my concept has been that a mass army is not something anyone is thinking about in Praetonia: the associations will still have their current split of small regular and large reserve forces but the reserves will basically be social clubs without a serious military capability at the start.

Meta point: people should feel free to just write and change stuff. If someone strongly doesnt like it they can just alter it afterwards without arguments. Don't wait for consensus or we will never do anything.